A study and Discussion Blog for "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ" from the only Red~Headed, Blue~Eyed, Freckle~Faced, Left~Handed, Colorblind, Guitar Teachin', Harpoon Blowin', L-DS, Vet on the Net!
Published on November 9, 2010 By ParaTed2k In Religion

CHAPTER 13

 The angel of the Lord showed Nephi a vision of the future.  In the vision, Nephi saw the many nations and kingdoms of Gentiles that would someday fill the earth.   Within the Gentile nations a “church” was formed, which was the great and abominable church that was also prophesied of by John the Revelator.  This “church” sought to enslave the hearts of men. Torturing people and binding them down into captivity.  The “church” was founded by Satan.

The angel showed Nephi the gold, silver, expensive clothing and harlots that the people of this “church” sought after.  He explained to Nephi that this was symbolic of these church members putting the love of riches of the earth before God. 

The purpose of this church was to destroy the righteous.  They used the riches of the earth to tempt the righteous, but if that didn’t work, they used torture and slavery.  In the end, if the saints didn’t turn away from the truth, they would be killed.

The “church” in this case is basically Babylon.  In general "the Great and Abominable Church is any person or group that fights against God here on earth. The prophecy describes Babylon’s fight against Israel, eventually leading to the fall of Jerusalem and the rest of the Holy Land.

The angle then goes on to show Nephi events leading to the formation of what is not the United States of America. 

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and awrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.  13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

The “man among the Gentiles” was Christopher Columbus.  Contrary to what has become the caricature of Columbus, he wasn’t some bumbling character who couldn’t seem to find his way around the Atlantic Ocean.  I can see why people would think so though.  Without any context to the contrary, that’s exactly what it seems he was.

However, when you think about it, he wasn’t new to the ocean or to sailing.  He was a seasoned Ship Captain who was handpicked above all his contemporaries to lead this voyage.  While he didn’t have a lot of good information about where he was headed, he did know navigation; which doesn’t change from one area of the earth to another.

This chapter also speaks to the myth about Columbus “discovering” the Americas.  We know that’s a myth because no “discovery” was needed.  There were people in the Americas when Columbus showed up.  They started calling the people they found “Indians”, since the people didn’t have a common term that referred to all the tribes.

According to this prophecy, Columbus was lead to the Americas by God to bring re-establish religious liberty to the earth.  This liberty was necessary to usher in the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness.

The people of the tribes of the Americas were a mix of the remnants of the generations of Lehi and Sariah and other cultures that moved into the areas at various times. 

The Gentiles of Europe learned how to proper in this “new world” and brought the Holy Bible with them.

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a abook, and it was carried forth among them.   21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?    22 And I said unto him: I know not.    23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The abook that thou beholdest is a brecord of the cJews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the dplates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

We will cover a lot more about the formation of the United States, as well as God’s purposes for creating it in future chapters.   

The angel then moves on to show Nephi revelations about the New Testament.   He is shown a vision of the 12 Apostles, who bore record of the truth taught by the Lamb of God.  He also shown that the time will come when the great and abominable church will use its influence to get “many plain and precious parts” taken from the writings to pervert the word of God for their own gain.

29 And after these plain and precious things were ataken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

But, of course, God will allow men to use their freedom of choice as we all see fit, but will not be frustrated by the choices we make. 

32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that aabominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.

Nephi is being taught why it is important for him and his posterity to continue keeping the record that as he was commanded.  A second witness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ would be established through his work.  That witness is The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

 

~~~~

TERMS OF PARTICIPATION


Comments
on Nov 09, 2010

Columbus was no boob, but he was mistaken.  He thought he world was smaller than it actually is, and that is why he thought he had found India instead of a new land.  The teaching that he did not "discover" the Americas is also correct.  However, since history was being written by the Europeans at the time (and since), they figured it was "lost" so had to be discovered.

on Nov 09, 2010

Yes, he did come up on land much sooner than he expected, so I agree, he was mistaken in thinking it was The Spice Islands.  But we learn in reading the Book of Mormon that he was lead by God.  Whether he realized that or not though, we have no idea.

on Nov 09, 2010

Within the Gentile nations a “church” was formed, which was the great and abominable church that was also prophesied of by John the Revelator. This “church” sought to enslave the hearts of men. ............. The “church” was founded by Satan. ...........The purpose of this church was to destroy the righteous. .......The “church” in this case is basically Babylon.

I'm glad to see the word church put in quotation marks. 

From my understanding of St.John's prophecy in the Book of Apocalypse, chapters 14:8 and 18: 1-10 Babylon was a city, not a church.

Apoc. 18:1-10

1 And after these things, I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power: and the earth was enlightened with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen; and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and the hold of every unclean and hateful bird: 3 Because all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth have been made rich by the power of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Render to her as she also hath rendered to you; and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup wherein she hath mingled, mingle ye double unto her. 7 As much as she hath glorified herself, and lived in delicacies, so much torment and sorrow give ye to her; because she saith in her heart: I sit a queen, and am no widow; and sorrow I shall not see. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine, and she shall be burnt with the fire; because God is strong, who shall judge her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication, and lived in delicacies with her, shall weep, and bewail themselves over her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning: 10 Standing afar off for fear of her torments, saying: Alas! alas! that great city Babylon, that mighty city: for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The “church” was founded by Satan. .......The “church” in this case is basically Babylon.

After reading these passages, we see that John sees another angel come down from heaven having great authority and a light that illumined the whole earth. He is shouting that Babylon has fallen and has become a dwelling place for demons and unclean spirits and birds.

From this we can reason that if Babylon is now inhabitated by demons, previously she must have been free of them....so the "church" which you say is basically Babylon couldn't have been founded by Satan.

According to verses 2 and 3, Babylon's present demonic condition is becasue it has fraternized with all nations and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her and the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness.

It seems to me that the present condition of Babylon described here is precisely the condition of Israel in the Old Testament.

on Nov 09, 2010

Babylon is a state of heart, not just a city.  It's more an archetypal use than a literal one.  Many people have speculated on which "church" was The Great and Abominable Church, but when you think about it, everyone who fights against God fits the description.

on Nov 09, 2010

ParaTed2k
Yes, he did come up on land much sooner than he expected, so I agree, he was mistaken in thinking it was The Spice Islands.  But we learn in reading the Book of Mormon that he was lead by God.  Whether he realized that or not though, we have no idea.

True.  It was a culmination of fortuitous events that lead to Columbus coming over - or divine providence.  But I think most of us here are glad he did, regardless of the reason.

on Nov 09, 2010

But we learn in reading the Book of Mormon that he was lead by God. Whether he realized that or not though, we have no idea.

Well this is where I agree with the Book of Mormon. I,too, am convinced that Columbus was led by God.

The “man among the Gentiles” was Christopher Columbus.

For 6 years I was librarian at a Catholic school where I taught and read books about Christopher Columbus to 5th through 8th graders.

Christopher Columbus in Italian, Cristoforo Colombo and in Spanish, Cristobal Colon was a baptized Catholic. He was one of three sons born in Genoa Italy in 1451 to Domenica Colombo, a master weaver and his wife, Susanna Fontanarossa. He died in Valladolid Spain on May 20, 1506 and left a will. Throughout his life Columbus emulated Saint Christopher, "The Christ bearer". He was ardent in religious devotion, and desired to spread the Christian Faith more than he wished for wealth, glory and distinction.

At 14, Columbus went to sea without any schooling but he had a rare ability to acquire knowledge through observation and experience. He was more than competant as a seaman, chartmaker, navigator, discoverer and writer. In 1476, he served as a Genoese privateer and survived the sinking of a ship off Cape St. Vincent, Portugal where he became a chartmaker with his brother, Bartholomew.

At this time, Castillian Spanish was the language of the educated in Portugal. Columbus studied geography and 3 of his books are in Castillian with Portuguese spellings or in Latin. He married Dona Felipa Perestrello e Moniz, and their son, Diego was born in 1480. She died before Columbus went to Spain and  is buried in the Moniz family chapel in Lisbon's Church of the Carmo.

Also at this time, Portugal led Europe in sea exploration and based on faith of his own ability as a seaman-navigator, Columbus conceived the idea of sailing Westward to Asia.

 

He thought he world was smaller than it actually is,

True. He grossly underestimated the size of the earth arguing that a degree on the equator measured 45.2 nautical miles and that's why King John II of Portugal denied to send him sailing westward.

So, Columbus went to Spain. In 1845, Columbus left Diego with the Franciscan friars at La Ribida. In 1846, with the help of the head of the Franciscans who was impressed by Columbus' ideas, explained them to and sought support from Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand. But they declined becasue at that time they were engaged in war against the Moors of Granada.

Columbus more determined than ever kept pressing on for support for his voyages. It came in 1492, again with the help of Father Juan Perez, Columbus was recalled to the Court and won approval for what would be his first voyage on the Santa Maria, Nina and Pinta.

I'd say that Columbus' achievments are that he gave Spain an empire and extended the Christian civilization.   

     

on Nov 09, 2010

According to this prophecy, Columbus was lead to the Americas by God to bring re-establish religious liberty to the earth.

I'd understand better if you took out the word "re-establish".

Like I said, I agree God ALmighty's hand was driving this and acts in human history.  Ferdinand, Isabella, and Columbus, all Catholics were mandated to carry out the words of Christ Himself, Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, pabtizing them in the name of the Father, aond of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all I have commanded you."

Columbus paved the way for the missionary work of the Franciscans, the Dominicans and other Spanish missionaries to come to the Americas and convert the Indian people to Christianity, specifially Catholicism.

Then came the arrival of Spanish explorers who opened up new worlds which paved the way for the migration of European settlers  themselves and unlike the North American ANglo-Saxons of Wounded knee fame, the Spanish created a new race through intermarriage...the Meztizos.

 

 

 

on Nov 10, 2010

Wow, Lula, thanks for that background information on Columbus!  Very interesting.

Thanks also for the Catholic viewpoint of the same historic events.  It's always good to get more than one side of the story, and helps us gain better understanding of the "why" and "how" of things. 

It doesn't suprise me that you disagree with the "re-establish" part.  The Catholic Church does believe that there is an unbroken line of authority from Christ to Pope Benedict XVI.   Since we aren't Catholics, we don't. 

My purposes for writing this blog is to help people understand more about The Book of Mormon (and the LDS Church in general).  However, that doesn't mean others can't write about what they believe about the topics covered.  That way readers can learn more than one take on the topic.

on Nov 10, 2010

It doesn't suprise me that you disagree with the "re-establish" part. The Catholic Church does believe that there is an unbroken line of authority from Christ to Pope Benedict XVI. Since we aren't Catholics, we don't.

This is true ParaTed and I promise I won't belabor this. But, since you brought it up,  I'll point out that this unbroken line of authority from Christ to Pope Benedict XVI is recorded in the Holy Bible and is also borne out in a careful objective investigation of history.

You write

The angel then moves on to show Nephi revelations about the New Testament. He is shown a vision of the 12 Apostles, who bore record of the truth taught by the Lamb of God.

The unbroken line of authority was given by Christ to His 12 Apostles. St.Peter was one of the 12 Apostles who bore record of the truth taught by the Christ, the Lamb of God.

The Holy Bible in St.Matthew 16:17-19 records that Christ changed Simon bar Jona's name to Peter and essentially made him the first Pope. The Pope which means head bishop of the Chruch is referred to as the "rock of the Church" or as the "shepherd of the Church". Christ used that terminology when He appointed Apostle Peter as the first head bishop of His Chruch saying, Blessed art thou Simon bar Jona ....thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church."

In another place Scripture records, "there shall be one fold and one shepherd". Christ tells Peter to "Feed My Lambs, feed My sheep".  The words "rock" and "shepherd" must apply to Peter and they must distinguish him as the head Apostle , otherwise Christ's statments are so ambiguious as to be meaningless....and we know that's impossible.

Now this brings me back to re-adress what you wrote about Babylon and make my case that "thje great and abominable church" is not the Catholic Church which evidently the Church of LDS believe itself to have re-established.

You say: 

The “church” in this case is basically Babylon.

It's more an archetypal use than a literal one.

However, in your article and comments, it sure seems as though you are looking at the "great and abominable church" in the literal sense.  

The angel then moves on to show Nephi revelations about the New Testament. He is shown a vision of the 12 Apostles, who bore record of the truth taught by the Lamb of God. He also shown that the time will come when the great and abominable church will use its influence to get “many plain and precious parts” taken from the writings to pervert the word of God for their own gain.

Many people have speculated on which "church" was The Great and Abominable Church, but when you think about it, everyone who fights against God fits the description.

My purposes for writing this blog is to help people understand more about The Book of Mormon (and the LDS Church in general). However, that doesn't mean others can't write about what they believe about the topics covered. That way readers can learn more than one take on the topic.

Thank you, ParaTed.

Two points.

Catholics believe that the Catholic Chruch is the one true Chruch of Jesus Christ. First. becasue theirs is the only Christian Church that goes back in history to the time of Christ. Second. becasue theirs is the only Christian Church which possesses the invincible unity, the intrinsic holiness, the continual universality, and the indisputable Apostolicity which Christ Himself would distinguish His Church. Thirdly...becasue the Apostles and early Chruch Fathers certainly  were members of Christ's true Church all professed membership in this same Catholic Church.

Our Lord said, there shall be one fold and one shepherd, and Scripture records there is one body, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, yet it is well known that every various Christian denomination that came after the Protestant Revolution cannot agree on what Christ taught. Since Christ roundly condemned interdenominationism when He said, "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." Catholic cannot believe that He would ever sanction it in His Church.

Catholics refuse to concede that the Catholic Chruch became doctrinally corrupt in the Middle Ages out of faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Bible records that Christ solemnly pledged that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church and He solemnly promised that after His Ascension into Heaven He would send His Chruch "another Paraclete...the Spirit of truth, " to dwell with it forever and He inspired the Apostle St.Paul to describe His Chruch as the "pillar and ground of truth".   

If the Catholic Chruch became doctrinally corrupt as alleged, it would mean that the gates of Hell prevailed against it ---it would mean that Christ deceived His followers. Believing that Jesus was Son of God Incarnate in human flesh, and therefore Truth itself, Catholics cannot in conscience believe that Christ would be guilty of such deception.

 

 

on Nov 10, 2010

Thanks Lula!  Again you articulate the Catholic position very well. 

Not being Catholics (or even Protestants for that matter), we don't recognise the Pope's authority.  Yes, Christ did call his 12 Apostles.  They did hold the authority of His Priesthood.  However, where does scripture tell us that they passed it to anyone.  Each of them were killed or banished, with no record of them ordaining another Pope to take Peter's place.

Christ did speak of "other sheep", but where is the record of who those "other sheep" are?  Christ didn't say.  He simply said

16 And aother bsheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16

Who are the other sheep?  We will get into that in detail in later chapters, but we believe the "other sheep" were the inhabitants of the Americas at the time of Christ.  

Of course Catholics refuse to concede that the Catholic Church became doctrinally corrupt.  Those who DO believe it leave the Catholic church... just like people who believe the LDS Church is (or has become) doctrinally corrupt leave our church (or just don't join).

As I pointed out before, there have been people who speculated about which "church" was the Great and Abominable Church (and some have pointed to the Catholic Church) however, LDS teaching is that it is no single organization.  It is the aggregate of all who fight against God.

That's why I'm not writing this blog to say "I'm Right, You're Wrong".  True, I am saying "I'm Right", but by leaving out the "You're Wrong" part, I leave it to the reader to decide if they accept what I'm saying as "right" or not. 

You also write your comments and beliefs.  That is good, it gives the readers the opportunity to see more than one side of the topics.  Which (if any) they choose is between them and God.  Not between me (or you) and them.

In his Apistle to Timothy, Paul mentioned Linus, but he mentioned others to.  What he didn't mention was any ordination or passing along the authority of the Priesthood.  You have your reasons to believe there was a "passing of the torch", but I have my reasons to believe there wasn't one.  It's not for you or I to force either belief on anyone else. I invite them to keep reading, and pray to Our Heavenly Father, in the Name of Jesus Christ to learn the truthfulness of it.  That way I'm not expecting anyone to take my word for it.  I not only invite people, I challenge them to pray, with their heart single to learning the truth. 

on Nov 10, 2010

Yes, Christ did call his 12 Apostles. They did hold the authority of His Priesthood. However, where does scripture tell us that they passed it to anyone. Each of them were killed or banished, with no record of them ordaining another Pope to take Peter's place.

Again, I won't belabor this beyond this comment however it will be lengthy in order to properly and thoroughly answer your question.

Yes, the Holy Bible indeed records Christ passed on His power and authority to the Apostles and from them to other good men through Apostolic Succession.


The Holy Bible teaches the twelve Apostles were sent by Christ to lay the first foundation of His Church, the Catholic Church. With Christ as the Head cornerstone, Peter was chosen as the foundation rock and the Apostles the foundation stones.


 Just before Jesus ascended into heaven, He gave them His power and authority and just as He had been sent He also sent them to continue His mission saying, “All authority in Heaven and earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of the world." St. Matt. 28:19-20.

So with the sacred power and authority Christ claimed in heaven and on earth,  He sent them on their pastoral mission to all the world until the consummation of the world at the end of time.  The doctrine of Apostolic succession means that the mission and power and authority to teach, rule and sanctify that Christ conferred on His Apostles perpetuated in the Church's episcopate. When Christ gave them the commission, He promised He would be with them “all days, to the end of the world.” verse 20. The promise of abiding divine assistance given in the context of the apostolic mandate implies that the mandate itself was to endure until the end of time.

But how was that to be done since the Apostles died?
 

Since Christ promised that His Church would endure until the end of time and that He would be with it always, the Church had to have apostolic continuity, teaching always what the Apostle's taught The Apostles, in order that the mission confided to them by Christ would continue after their deaths, appointed other men to continue the work they had begun.

Scripture teaches the how and when and who the Apostles appointed as their lawful successors to carry on their work.

Saul, renamed St.Paul, had been selected by Christ Himself; yet he was later ordained by Apostolic authority.

Acts 13:2-3, “As they were ministering to the Lord, and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them, Separate me Saul and Barnabas for the work whereunto I have taken them. Then they, fasting and praying and imposing hands upon them, sent them away.”

If you read the Epistle of St.Paul to Titus you’ll see it records that St.Paul having preached the faith in the isle of Crete, he ordained Titus, bishop, and left him there to finish the work he had begun. St. Paul directs Titus to ordain bishops and priests for the different cities,showing him the principal qualities necessary  for a bishop, also gives him particular advice for his own flock, exhorting him to hold the strictness of discipline, but seasoned with lenity. It was written about 33 years after Our Lord’s Ascension.

Here’s one verse of Titus 1:5.  “For this cause I left thee in Crete that thou should set in order the things that are wanting, and should ordain priests in every city, as I had appointed thee.”

 The Apostles acted collectively as officers of the Church which would become known as the Catholic Church. It got its name from a bishop passing through Smyrna on his way to Rome to die for “the faith of Jesus Christ.” Rom. 3:26. They exercised the 3 fold power of teaching, governing and sanctifying. Acts 1:12-26; 2:37-43; 4:35-37; 5:1-11; 28-41; 8:14-20. In Acts 5, there were 72 disciples appointed to carry on the work of the Apostles.

The Bible teaches that the office of the bishop, priests, etc. in the true Church comes by Divine appointment; i.e. God gives individuals a special vocation to this calling.

Hebrews 5:4, “And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”

Hebrews 5:1, “For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.”  As far as offering sacrifice here, Christ ordered His Church to perpetuate that sacrificial rite for the continued sanctification of His followers , saying, “take ye and eat, this is My Body, take ye, this is My Blood, …Do this for a commemoration of Me.”  St.Paul who wrote this text in Hebrews also bears witness that the sacrifical rite which Christ instituted at the Last Supper is to be perpetuated and that is exactly what he was doing. We know this from reading 1Corinthians 11:23-27. It gives the earliest and most detailed account of the Holy Eucharist and was written in Ephesus in 52-55 AD. The consecration formula quotes verbatim from a formula already in use in Apostolic times. So in short the Catholic Eucharistic liturgy celebrated at every Holy Mass is indeed the same one as the Apostles and implicitly their successors where commanded to celebrate in His memory.

St. Peter tells us in his letter that upon the death of these successors other proven men should be appointed to succeed them 1St. Peter 2: 4-5, 9, 12, 21, 25. Under the Apostles, a hierarchy began to appear with bishops, presbyter (priests) and deacons. Acts 6 relates to the appointment by the Apostles of the "seven". This is the second identifiable group of disciples entrusted to the ministry of the early Catholic Church. V.6 The Apostles establish the seven in their office or ministry through prayer and the “laying on of hands”, a rite that the early Church had adopted as of the conferring of a spiritual grace of office. The authority to carry out the ministry which implies a calling from God, is something he must receive through ordination, which the Apostles confer. (Today, it’s called the Sacrament of Holy Orders). God, not men, gives them a spiritual power which equips them to govern and teach the Christian community, administer the Sacraments, including the Mass and consecration of the Eucharist and preach the Word.

In 2Tim.1:6, Timothy received the grace of his ministry “through the laying on of hands" from St.Paul. 1TIm. 4:14 tells us that others were with St. Paul when he conferred the fullness of the priesthood on Timothy. Both Timothy and Titus were sent out and they ordained priests and deacons. 1Tim. 3:1; 5:17-22; Tit. 1:5.

St. Ignatius' writing in 107 AD supposes that the episcopate has been instituted for some time. He asserts that there is one bishop in every church to whom the presbyters (priests) and deacons must be subject. I can supply other Church Father’s writings which confirm the same and trace the line of bishops, priests and deacons down to the first century to the Apostles. Thus, a continuous hierarchy was established to continue the work of the Twelve. These men were given the Greek name, Episkopas, literally overseer, and in English, we term "bishop".

After St. Peter is St. Linus, then St.Cletus, and then St.Clement of Rome. I won’t here, but can name all 265 Popes and give the dates of their pontificate. Pope Clement rebukes them for a schism that had broken out among them. It's historical significance is shows the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), intervening authoritatively in the affairs of the Church to settle a dispute and indicates the primacy that was given to a successor of St. Peter. The epistle of Clement to the Corinthians witnesses to the belief of the Church in the last decade on the 1st century, with their ministry. He speaks of these bishops as having been constituted either by the Apostles themselves or that the Apostles had made provision for a succession in their ministry. Clement says that the Apostles installed bishops, and then laid down the rule that when these men passed on, others should be ordained and continue subsequently by “other eminent men”.

There is no doubt that from the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus, and with evidence from Scripture, that within 3 decades of the death of Christ, the Church had already hierarchically organized just as I have described. Thus the apostolic succession is maintained through the popes, who are successors to Peter as the Vicar of Christ, the bishops, successors to the Apostles, the priests, successors to those early priests, and the deacons.

on Nov 10, 2010

Christ did speak of "other sheep", but where is the record of who those "other sheep" are? Christ didn't say. He simply said

16 And aother bsheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16

Who are the other sheep? We will get into that in detail in later chapters, but we believe the "other sheep" were the inhabitants of the Americas at the time of Christ.

First we know that Christ's own preaching is addressed to the sheep of Israel as He Himself revealed to the Canaanite woman. St.Matt. 15:24. As well He sent the Apostles on their first mission to preach to the people of Israel. I'd say "the other sheep that are not of this fold" are the remnant of Jews.

The Catholic Church has been since Christ sent His Twelve and is presently bringing lost sheep into the one fold. The Anglicans, not happy with women priestesses and homosexual "bishops",  are converting to the Church in droves. I read the story today.   

I'll be looking for your article on this.   

 

on Nov 10, 2010

That's why I'm not writing this blog to say "I'm Right, You're Wrong". True, I am saying "I'm Right", but by leaving out the "You're Wrong" part, I leave it to the reader to decide if they accept what I'm saying as "right" or not.

And this is what is particularly pleasant about you and participating in your blogs.

You also write your comments and beliefs. That is good, it gives the readers the opportunity to see more than one side of the topics. Which (if any) they choose is between them and God. Not between me (or you) and them.

The 64 thousand dollar question is God's Chruch...where amidst all the world's churches is God's true Church to be found?  "Seek and you shall find....knock and it will be opened to you."

 

on Nov 11, 2010

Yes, Lula, the quest is to find God's True Church.  You believe it is the Catholic Church (and more power to you!)  I believe it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  We are both Christians, so I think we have the basic tenent covered (Acceptance of Christ as our personal savior).  Others believe something completely different.

That's why discussions like this are important.  Not because some concensus will determine truth (since truth is truth even if no one believes it). But because the truth can only be found by seeking it.  That's why reading and praying are more important than simply accepting.  Our Heavenly Father is the only one who knows all truth, and is willing to share it with anyone who truly wants to find it.

on Nov 11, 2010

Yes, Lula, the quest is to find God's True Church.

If I weren't Catholic, and were looking for the true CHurch of Christ, I would look for the one which did not get along well with the world. In other words, I'd look for the Chruch which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be because Christ was hated by the world.

I'd look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Chruch which is accused of coming from the devil as OUr Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the prince of devils.

I'd look for the Church which the world rejects as Our Lord was rejected by men.

 

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